Leading an International Team

In 2010 podcast host Kate Peardon met fellow Australian Emilia Simonin in an MBA classroom in Paris. Throughout the years they've shared their journey across a number of countries and through corporate leadership, and today Emilia is the Global Market and Business Intelligence Director at L'Oreal, in Paris. 

Today's episode interviews Emilia on her three key leadership lessons on her experience leading cross-cultural teams, and how each has shaped her journey from an Australian working in marketing in Sydney, to international director in Paris.  Her lessons include:

1. It's all about people, no matter who or where you're leading

2. Communication styles in different cultures

3. How authenticity has helped Emilia overcome cultural barriers

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Episode Transcript:

Emilia Simonin: 0:00

If leadership is about people and people interact and communicate through relationships, then how do you form these relationships and these connections? And for me, it's been very much around open-hearted being the Australian you're in, and that's been a bit of a journey as well with the French environment, where it takes a little while. When I mentioned leadership, I feel for me boils down to relationships and choices. It's the choices I make in terms of how I communicate with them and it's through these small gestures that the trust is developed daily. And that's a learning curve as well, and that's what it means to be in an international cross-cultural environment. You need to be adaptive, flexible, open to the other culture as well.

Kate Peardon: 0:40

Welcome to the Level Up Leadership Podcast. This is the go-to podcast for chronically busy leaders and small business owners who are ready to get out of the weeds and start leading. The weekly episodes have micro leadership lessons focused on how to level up your leadership and help you to be 1% better every day. It's all about growing your leadership wisdom, building your team and being the leader people want to work for. So let's get into it. Welcome to the Level Up Leadership Podcast. Today, I am joined by a very special guest from the other side of the world, which seems a fitting place for you to be living, seeing as where we met. I am joined today by Emilia Simona, who is coming in from Paris. She is the Global Market and Business Intelligence Director at L'Oreal, and we met in 2010, when we were both studying at university. Amelia has some wonderful stories to share today about her leadership journey. So welcome, em, and can you share a little bit about your background, of how you got to where you are today?

Emilia Simonin: 1:45

Yes, thanks so much for having me. Today I'm heading up the Global Market Intelligence and Analytics team for the Consumer Products Division at L'Oreal headquarters in Paris. I'm an Australian, but I see myself as a citizen of the world and how I got here was not a straight line at all. So I started with a passion for marketing, which ultimately led to a fascination for human behavior, which led to wanting to be a part of setting the strategy, because early on in my career the marketing teams. I've always worked for multinationals and was in the markets early on in my career and traditionally we were handed the strategy by the headquarters and the markets were essentially executing. So this then led to me wanting to understand even more about needs, attitudes, beliefs, shopping behaviors, which led me to my current CMI roles. I'd say the red thread in my career has been very much about curiosity and the quest for helping my organization get more consumer centric. So it's been a decade in marketing roles and a decade in our CMI roles.

Kate Peardon: 2:43

You were working in Australia. We met over in Paris. You stayed Paris longer than I did, met a lovely French gentleman, worked in Paris, came back to Sydney and now back in Paris again.

Emilia Simonin: 2:54

Exactly Like I said, I very much enjoy being a global citizen of the world and it's been a great cross-cultural experience.

Kate Peardon: 3:01

Yes, one that I'm looking forward to diving into. I was in Paris visiting it must be a few months ago now and we got into some wonderful conversations about culture and being Australian and how language and backgrounds all influence how we work and what our work ethic is, how you lead an international and multicultural team. So I'm excited to dig into your three leadership lessons today. So we've had a little bit of a conversation and the first one obviously I love, because your first leadership lesson is it's all about people, a big favorite of mine. How did you come up with this idea that it's all about people?

Emilia Simonin: 3:41

when it comes to leadership. Well, it's all been through trial and error and experience. Hindsight's a beautiful thing, I think. For me, where I am now, where I'm coming from, when I say it's all about people, I feel like it's always been about people Leadership from the beginning of time, from looking at communities, cultures, tribes, outside of corporate, it's always been about leading people.

Emilia Simonin: 4:00

From a theory perspective, there's been so many different theories on leadership over the last two decades, and the last eight especially. It's been a bit of a buzz, I feel. But it boils down for me now, as I said, in hindsight, it's all about people and I would probably say, in essence, I kind of see it as two things. I see it as relationships and choices. So, relationships being, if leadership is about people, it's about creating trusting relationships, it's about how you communicate, it's about how you connect. And then the second piece for me, about choices, is all about, well, how do you show up in those relationships and how do you behave. And then that's when all the other theory comes in EQ and things like that. So, ultimately, leaders achieve goals through people. Simple as it is, I think.

Kate Peardon: 4:41

And if you don't have their trust, you don't achieve anything. Well, actually you do with fear, but fear only lasts a certain amount of time.

Emilia Simonin: 4:48

Yeah, and I think trust is a huge, huge one, and there's so much theory on trust alone now, and there's different types of leadership, and authentic leadership is all the buzz. But that's my lesson number three, which I'll talk to in a sec.

Kate Peardon: 4:59

Actually I'm going to be casting a memory back now, but some people give trust straight up and then it's up to the person to lose it and when they lose it it's gone. And other people you build and you earn trust. And then sort of once you've got it, you've got it. And I remember having a conversation with you saying, like different people have different styles and with you you give trust straight away. I remember the first day we met was a click. You're like yep, trusted, you're in and like have stuck solid by that. And I think about you and your leadership style. This would be quite similar as well. You'd be like right, you're on my team, I've got your back Absolutely.

Emilia Simonin: 5:34

It's all about authentic leadership. For me, that's again speaking of theory on leadership. Over the years that's been now proven to be one of the most effective forms of leadership. Being an authentic leader is built on trust. What I really love about this becoming in the mainstream now is that it gives us permission to be nice at work. It used to be nice at work doesn't work. You need to be tough and you need to be aggressive, and especially for women in leadership, I feel like that's what we were taught we had to be, and it's just on this big 360 now where actually women are being proven scientifically through research I mean CMI that they are not to say one versus the other in terms of the sexes the battle of the sexes but women are being proven through science to be more effective leaders because they naturally fall into this authentic style and, to your point, trust is a really big piece of that authentic style.

Emilia Simonin: 6:23

But what does it mean to be authentic? It means you're transparent. It means you lead with integrity. You're very open in your communication. You provide the information needed to your teams at the right time to make decisions. You allow them to import into the decision making, which used to be seen as these soft, fuzzy skills that were ineffective, but they're proving now they're super effective. I think for the first time in history I was reading the other day the Fortune 500 companies women CEOs are at about 10% now, which is the first time it's being recognized as a way to build effective teams. Why, as you said, it's all based on trust and it's another correlation that's been proven. High performing teams have high trust. Why do we need trust? Well, if there's no trust, there's no psychological safety, there's no open collaboration. Then without open collaboration, there's no creativity. Without creativity, there's no innovation. Without innovation, there's no growth. It's all linked and it all correlates back to growth and to success.

Kate Peardon: 7:17

How have you found that correlating as an Australian going into a French business? Because your style is what you see is what you get. You're clear, you're articulate and you know what you want, and you're very clear at sharing your expectations, so no one's uncertain on where they stand. Your communication is one of the hallmarks of your leadership style. Now, from what I know of French people and from the time that I spent in France, that's quite different. How does it go for you?

Emilia Simonin: 7:45

It's such a fascinating observation. You're absolutely on the money there and I'll tell you the secret sauce. The reason my style as an Australian works in France is because I've been in global roles and that cross-cultural map in that cross cultures, the low context style, which is the explicit, very direct, very clear, keep repeating the message, make sure you understand. That's the one that trumps in cross-cultural environments and that's why it's worked for me. And I don't know if you've read the culture map by Erin Meyer. It was one of the first things I read when I started going international. She says actually much like your observation. I was like, oh, that's why I got away with it. It is very much our style. But at the same time, again, if I reference the culture map, she maps it all out, basically on eight dimensions. She's in Paris now as well. Actually she's a professor at INSEAD, but I think she released this theory back in 2014 and for me it's been a bit of a bible and it helps me understand, not only navigate my international post, but understand. The French Australian correlation is a really interesting one because from a communication style we're low context, as you say, explicit they are very sophisticated. It's the art of conversation. Correlation is a really interesting one because from a communication style we're low context, as you say, explicit, they are very sophisticated, it's the art of conversation, it's all in the unsaid, read between the lines, other gestures and codes outside of language. It's how you dress, how you sit. In my personal life in Paris there's been a couple of uh-ohs, but on that point, where the Australians work in France, in terms of how we confront things, we're pretty okay with confrontation and we're both on the same side of the spectrum. So for me that's kind of worked, for me as well.

Emilia Simonin: 9:16

I'll give you a personal example on the French-Australian combination, and this took me ages to crack. As you said, I've been with a Frenchman for a little while, but early on in the relationship we were a cross-cultural relationship and so his communication style was different to my communication style and we would disagree and me being the Anglophone who's very literal, and my language is very explicit and exact and precise, and I would say, okay, but you said X, Y, Z, you know I'd repeat the words and he would always look at me sort of baffled and saying, but that's not what I meant. I said, but then why did you say it if that's not what you meant. And for him he kept saying to me listen to the meaning, not my words. And he took me a long time and he actually once I was sort of started working in cross-cultural environments and I had more examples outside of that space where I sort of started to understand. Right, communication is pretty key as well.

Kate Peardon: 10:08

I think that's such a good example and I think, independent of cross-culture, often we get hung up on the words and what we believe the words to mean, separate than what is the intent behind this conversation, not what are the words being said, and I think that is a great leadership tip in itself. And then you add on the cultural context as well. We'd had a conversation because I asked do you work in French or English? And you'd said to me I work in English because it's like businesses, it's the English language and this is how I get my message across. And just hearing your lessons of leadership, I also see how actually that could be an advantage for you for people to understand your style, because your style, said in French language, is something that would be almost clashing where your style in English makes sense, putting your style in French. You'd always have to change your style when you speak in French for it to make sense, have I?

Emilia Simonin: 11:01

understood correctly. Yes, you have, and I think for me it sort of comes back to that authentic leadership style. I've also got a natural coaching style. I wanted to be a primary school teacher as a kid and all of the social gatherings with the family whenever there was a problem child they'd send them to me because I'd sit with them and I would want to nurture them and I'd want to help them. And I remember in grade three I got the gold star for being the one that helps the teacher with the kids that sat behind. It's my natural style and I think when we go back to this concept of humans and the foundation of trust, I feel that's what shines through. When people can see that you are being authentic, that they can trust you, they will open up, even if your style is a little bit different.

Kate Peardon: 11:42

I think that's a really great point for cross-cultural differences, but also independent of that, because we're always going to have different styles as leaders and you can't expect it to be similar. So the best you can do is be consistently, authentically you, because it's when it's inconsistent, it's when people then start to question well, what is this?

Emilia Simonin: 11:59

Yes, and I think it comes down to you know something else we haven't spoken about, which is really foundational to my leadership style, which is individuals and appreciating. People are individuals. Yes, you're leading teams, yes, you have a common purpose, and that's where communication is really important as well to motivate people across that common purpose and goal. But ultimately they're individuals and for me this comes natural, for me with the coaching style, because I want to develop them and I want to nurture them. When you think about relationship, there's always some kind of a value exchange, so if I'm giving something back, they're going to be a lot more motivated to give me their 100%. We've all had points in our career where we had bad bosses. It's a challenging or less inspiring leaders that we reported to, and I'm pretty sure there's research on this now as well. The number one thing that people say makes a bad leader is somebody who can't do that, somebody who can't communicate, who doesn't listen, who doesn't care, and ultimately, for me, that's something that, no matter what the culture is, is going to shine through and is going to build stronger teams Care about the individual that is part of the team.

Emilia Simonin: 13:02

I'm still a huge Maya Briggs fan. For me, it's these two layers right. You have the cultural layer and being a marketer we're taught about conditioning. Erin Meyer talks about this in the culture map as well. She says it's the country you were raised in.

Emilia Simonin: 13:16

I had the foundational years. That tends to be who you are and I think for us it's very much about and this is why I love the Maya Briggs. It's a combination of the cultural layers of how somebody is going to behave and the personality, and for me to understand your personality, I think Maya Briggs the MBTI they call it offers a really good insight into individual personalities and I think, a leader, if you're going to care about individuals, you need to understand what motivates them, and that's been something that I've really held true. I came across a quote early on in my career and I grabbed it and it's absolutely a mantra now for me, which is treat people how they want to be treated, not how you want to be treated. You know, you remember there used to be a saying that said treat people how you want to be treated In Australia.

Kate Peardon: 14:01

Definitely, we were told that as kids and it's great as an initial concept, but as you get older you realize well no, people don't always want to be treated like how I want to be treated.

Emilia Simonin: 14:10

No, absolutely, and I think, sort of going back to the different leadership styles, this is where it does make a difference. If you take notice.

Kate Peardon: 14:17

People often ask what type of tools I recommend and I've got a whole suite of different ones and different tools for different reasons, and I know the MBTI has been around for a long time and there's lots of free tools you can do and there's some questions about the data and how validity happens, but I always go back to that. Any tool that gives you an insight about yourself or your team that's useful is a good tool. If you've never done anything in a personality profiling, I'll put a link for that particular one that you can just see a little bit about how you work and like, if I'm honest, I put in my husband's stuff and I like tried to figure him out as well and I was spot on because years later he did it when we compared notes, but it helped me it does help you and this is the thing I feel like, this new concept.

Emilia Simonin: 15:05

again. I referenced authentic leadership. There is no line anymore. If you do bring your values to work and who you are on the outside, I mean, you'd never deceive your mother, would you? You'd have a trusting relationship. You would never treat people in your personal sort of sphere and those relationships in an inauthentic way. So why do it at work? So I think, especially when we talk about understanding individuals' motivations and understanding how people work around you yourself, I think is just as important. This is where the whole EQ theory comes in, and that was another milestone for me in terms of my career, I think, when that became mainstream in the early 2000s and being self-aware about yourself while you're also learning about those around you as well yeah, for good leaders it's this inside out model.

Kate Peardon: 15:47

So learning about yourself, learning about your team and then leading your team, because there's no way you can lead a team if you don't understand the people, and there's no way you can understand people unless you understand yourself. So I think you've hit the nail on the head Understand self first, understand the people around you and then you can lead. Don't try the other way around. It'll probably be a train wreck. So you've mentioned a few books and resources that you love, a couple others that you had mentioned to me before. Dal carnegie, you'd come across in your career. We've talked a little bit about daniel goldman's eq and brené brown, who's a wonderful one when we're talking about authentic leadership, she's got a wonderful style. Is there anything you want to add on to those?

Emilia Simonin: 16:25

yeah, I think brené brown, she's beyond incredible, mean, she's the next wave that our people have been waiting for. She covers so much of this. She breaks it all down and I think something else to add to that when we talked about the three lessons. The third one for me is communication is king, and Brene Brown in particular.

Emilia Simonin: 16:43

In her latest book, atlas of the Heart, she talks a lot about language, and I think this has been underestimated as well. And she goes on to say language is so powerful that it can build empires and it can crush them, and perhaps there's some real life examples of that in our history. But she talks about how language is. It's how we connect, it's how we understand each other. And if you look at the definition of communication, yes, it's information exchange, it's exchange of ideas, be it through speaking, through gestures, through writing. This is something else that's probably really, really critical. And to answer the point you made earlier about I work in English, yes, I work in English because I have the words to express myself, because my relationships, my interactions are so important to me. So I'm intermediate French. I've only been here for three years, as you said. I've been in and out of the country, but it takes a while to learn a language at business level, and so I think that's probably something else.

Emilia Simonin: 17:37

I would add to that. Even today's podcast and our conversation the value your listeners are going to get and the perception they're going to have of what we talk about is very reliant on the language you and I use, the vocabulary we have to express our ideas, our experiences, our opinions. It's something that probably gets overlooked a little bit, I think, in leadership theory, the book how to Win Friends and Influence People, it's all the same principles. It's treating people how they want to be treated. It's understanding individual styles and working within that. So, even though they come from very different scientific theory or concepts or foundation, they all come back to this concept of people, and so they're probably the big ones.

Emilia Simonin: 18:18

For me, eq I think this one is probably something that takes a little bit longer. I feel like when you first start to join the workforce, you make a lot of mistakes. My big mistake I can be vulnerable and put it out there was my perfectionism, my pursuit of excellence, my fear of failure, and I think through the framework of EQ, you start to learn. Okay, you let this go, but you start to be more self-aware, look inside and apply it back on the outside.

Kate Peardon: 18:46

I don't know you have very high standards for yourself and for your team on what's expected, and I think that point of perfection is, as a trying to be reformed perfectionist myself, I totally understand that, like, my expectations of how good something has to be is very high, and trying to find that point that that's okay and then to not put that on other people. It's a work in progress for me and I think a lot of people will feel very similar.

Emilia Simonin: 19:14

You know, my pursuit of excellence hasn't gone away and I still want to achieve the absolute best that I can achieve. That standard is still there. It's the value I believe I bring to my organization, but I think it's how you do it. I said the relationships and the choices. It's the choices and for me, by understanding my individual team's needs, by being able to coach them and give them, as I said, the value exchange, it's about motivating them and exciting them to a point where they are in it with you. They want to achieve it as much as you and if you are a coaching style leader, you want your team to shine. I feel like there's a certain profile and this is where my bricks is really important for me anyway, because you need the hunger. The hunger is intrinsic. They need to have the hunger first and then, through the way you work together, you can apply it to the business goal and I think sometimes as a leader, helping the person tap into their hunger and find their hunger.

Kate Peardon: 20:11

that's sort of where the magic can come out, and perhaps people haven't had someone that has spent the time to sit down and work out. Well, where do you want to go in your career and how can this be part of your journey? And sometimes that's where you can tap into that hunger.

Emilia Simonin: 20:24

Yes, absolutely, and I think there's a certain element of it's about the journey, and you'll come across individuals at different parts of their journey.

Emilia Simonin: 20:33

There's going to be a hunger for something different and, again, this is where I feel like it's really important to understand where the individual is at, to be able to motivate them and to even apply them to something that's really applicable to them.

Emilia Simonin: 20:45

You know, over the last decade, the last three roles I've had have all been transformational roles and coming into the teams. Of course, outside of building the trust first and understanding what we're all here to do, for me it's about putting the right people in the right part of the project the part that's going to motivate them and the part that's going to drive them, and it's going to be different at different times of day. A really good example in my team right now one is learning the ropes and very much still wanting to learn the technical. They've got different levels of experience and the other one wants to get into management next. So, naturally, the tasks or the parts of the projects they manage or run, I'm going to reflect what it is they're trying to achieve and that's what you can do as a leader. That's the gift you can give to your teams as the leader.

Kate Peardon: 21:27

You remind me of a 20 old version of me that got fired from a job and I look back and like, oh yeah, maybe I would have fired me as well, but the job I got after that, they had me in such a high performer because the leader could tap into something that the previous people couldn't. I'm not saying it's always a leader's responsibility, it's a two-way street but it was so interesting for me looking back to think same person, same drive. In this role I was completely failing and got fired. The other role I was a complete star performer. So as a leader, how can you find that little bit of magic? I think that's a really great point.

Emilia Simonin: 22:05

I think it's very much as well about once upon a time when we started our careers. It was all about you, remember. All the end of year reviews were about what you were doing wrong, and at one point leadership theory switched and said let's focus on people's strengths. And it's a perfect example that you've just given where, okay, let's work on your strengths and you're going to shine and you're going to excel. But also there's a fine line, because sometimes people's strengths is not what they want, and this is where the low context culture and communication style comes in.

Emilia Simonin: 22:31

For me. I ask people explicitly what do you want to do, what do you like? And, as you said, leading French teams took a little bit of while to say do I really tell her what I mean? And eventually, again building the trust. Eventually they do tell you what they like, and then 80% of the time is usually what their strengths are. And I think, if you step outside of leadership theory and look at the metaphysical and spiritual literature that's out there now on wellness and what's my purpose and getting really quite deep, they all talk about this. They all talk about usually the things that light you up are usually the things that you're really good at, and so I guess you say it's sort of just about tapping into that. And it goes back to what I said in my intro has always been my passion understanding people and I'm an extrovert, no surprise, and so I love people, which I think is a wonderful link back to your three leadership lessons.

Kate Peardon: 23:23

It's all about the people. Be your authentic self and communication is king, or maybe queen.

Emilia Simonin: 23:30

Absolutely.

Emilia Simonin: 23:31

It sounds so simple when you say it, but it is absolutely about experiences and observations.

Emilia Simonin: 23:37

And while there've been theoretical inspirations and books and literature and theories that have guided me again, being that we're a human race and we're all about people, we're tribal by instinct, it's all been through interactions, it's been how this particular interaction and relationship and what was the outcome of that, and take the learning, and in the next one you're a little bit different. And then take that learning and the next one you're a little bit different, and that's probably been the hardest part of the journey. I think you asked me in a previous conversation what have been some of your challenges. That transformation from being a technical expert and then moving into a people and in your line of work you've always been around people, so perhaps not so difficult for you, but it's very much. When you go up the ranks as a technical expert, then shifting those gears, that's probably been the most challenging and I find that's something that just it's experience, it's practice makes perfect and you need to get out there and you need to get out of your comfort zone and try things.

Kate Peardon: 24:29

You are spot on. There's another podcast episode called the Leadership Ladder and I talk exactly about this that we got a technical ladder and we get to the spot where we are technically great at what we do and we're confident and we know our stuff, and then we get a team of people that are also technically competent to lead. But the technical ladder is different to the leadership ladder and it's a whole nother skill set and you're starting at the bottom again and I think we don't realize this. That leadership is something that you can learn and it is a skill set, and I think that's all. I'm trying to get the insights of your leadership lessons along the way to show that it is something that you've picked up as you've gone along and that you've learned how to do it, and it's not something that you're born with.

Emilia Simonin: 25:10

No, and I think there's some natural charismatic leaders out there, and we know lots of them. You've got your Nelson Mandela and Oprah Winfrey even. I think she comes up as like a really inspirational, authentic leader. But I think it does come down to people you are exposed to and finding people to look up to, and it was no accident that actually, when that change started to happen for me, I happened to be exposed to really powerful people, led leaders, and I watched and I learned, and so I think this is why I say people really need to get out of their comfort zones, and I'm a big advocate of moving around, getting lots of experience, getting exposure to different environments, cultures, countries, people, organizations, and so that's probably something I would absolutely recommend as a leadership goal as well to really get out there, get out of your comfort zone, get exposed to people and try things. Don't be afraid to try things.

Kate Peardon: 26:04

I think that is a wonderful last piece of advice for our episode, em Don't be afraid to try things, and I think of the adventures that we've had in other countries around the world and in Australia, and you are definitely one that is always thinking, well, what is next, what can be the next little bit outside the comfort zone? And I always encourage our listeners to think of like what's 1% you can take from this episode and apply, because it's all about this compounding interest, and I think there's wonderful pieces that you've shared about communication, about people, about differences in culture and being your authentic self, and I think this last piece of get out of your comfort zone and give it a go Absolutely.

Emilia Simonin: 26:43

That's where you grow and this growth mindset, I feel has been leading me throughout my career. That's probably a big lesson as well.

Kate Peardon: 26:51

Amazing. Thank you for joining us today, Em.

Emilia Simonin: 26:54

Thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure.